Here's this.

And a sage.

I'm going to make this thread about corgis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMOC44vby9g

"N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT) is a naturally occurring psychedelic compound of the tryptamine family. DMT is ubiquitously found in plants[3] and also in trace amounts in mammals, including humans, where it may putatively function as a trace amine neurotransmitter[4]. It is originally derived from the essential amino acid tryptophan and ultimately produced by the enzyme INMT during normal metabolism.[5] The natural significance of its widespread presence remains undetermined. "

"DMT is also the primary psychoactive in ayahuasca, an Amazonian Amerindian brew employed for divinatory and healing purposes. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

>>12385
I'm ignoring your sage. Cute dog. :)

I'm also ignoring any religious trolls who just want to be bags of dicks. From this point on, I just want to talk about the afterlife, concepts of god, existence, and anything involving that outside the religious sects. I don't want to hear about secular religion, we all already know about it, we all know what you're going to say and it is not something I care to discuss.

>>12387
What's the point in talking about the afterlife? If it exists, then it's beyond anything conceivable to a mortal mind and there's no way to gather any evidence of what actually happens when you die. If it doesn't exist, then there's even less chance of proving anything exists after death and there's even less point in giving it any thought.

There are more important things to spend time thinking about.

>>12388
It isn't that anyone will find evidence and there really is no purpose to this thread. It is just something interesting to talk about. I LIKE listening to other peoples take on the afterlife. I read a really good one on /x/ the other day involving the pineal glad. That is where it is said the soul resides, and when you die your soul departs from your pineal glad, and passes through a membrane into another dimension in space where an omnipotent being lives and you just become part of that being. It was really interesting and I'm leaving a millions things out of it. That is interesting to me, this thread is just for stimulating conversation.

What's your take, I know your Jewish, but everyone has their own separate beliefs.

>>12389
Well to put it better really as I understood it, was that this god figure lives outside the membrane of our universe. Your "soul" is basically just energy that passes through that membrane into the other universe and becomes part of that unfeeling unseeing being.

>>12389
>secular religion
lmfao

>>12389
>What's your take, I know your Jewish, but everyone has their own separate beliefs.

The Jewish worldview on this matter is basically whether or not there is a God or an afterlife, it doesn't matter. Torah is not for God, prayer is not for God, leading a good life is not for God, and doing anything for the sake of an unknowable reward in an unknowable afterlife is a unique kind of selfishness and stupidity.

A good deed done for the sake of reward may more or less be the same as a good deed done for it's own sake as far as society's concerned, but for the individual, one might as well do evil.

I just don't see the point of devoting any time to thinking about a hypothetical afterlife. To me, it's the same as talking about non-existent science in a science fiction setting, but at least that's fun.

>>12392
Well really what is the point of any discussion, ultimately any discussion going on in this board is without purpose, it is here solely for stimulating conversation. You may not be interested in the afterlife, but I am. So that is what I want to discuss.

I agree that doing good things in life to receive a reward in heaven is very selfish. I think you should be a good person for the sake of being a good person.

Well as far as purpose goes; the purpose of this thread is to discuss religion and the afterlife. That's about it

>>12393

According to Christian teachings, once you become Saved, you are saved for life. Good deeds do not get you into Heaven.

>>12393
Abstract discussion can be a good thing to build rhetorical expertise, flush out one's doubts, or secure one's strengths in their stance, but this is something so abstract that I don't see how anything productive can come of it.

I'm usually all for discussing religion and politics, but this is a religious discussion that I can't imagine leading to anything of value.

According to the new testament, sage.

>>12395
Well how I was raised you can do whatever you want as long as you go in a box and tell an old man what you did. Say some hail Marrys and it's all good. Seems like crap to me, but that is just me.

>>12396
That's like your opinion man. I prefer to talk about the abstract. There have been plenty pointless discussions you've been in that I've ignored. Just sayin.

in my mind death is what everyone is leading up too, it is the most important and pivotal moment in your life. Whether it is the death of a loved one, or of yourself. You may think it is meaningless, but again, that is only your opinion. Now if you don't have anything to add to the discussion aside from "This is pointless" then really don't say anything at all. I want to hear other peoples ideas, not why you think this discussion is pointless. To me, religion is pointless, including Judaism. But when you argue about that stuff time after time I just let it go because it's obviously interesting to someone.

>>12399
>That's like your opinion man.
The Dude has made many statements far more intelligent than anything that has ever been stated in any of these threads.

sage

>>12399
I think you're bringing an atheistic, Coast-to-Coast AM viewpoint to this that someone, the afterlife is (a) something to consider and (b) the focus of any "intelligent" religious person's life.

I'm telling you that abstraction is good, but when you get to a point that what you're talking about is so abstract, so devoid of any ability to be grounded in anything resembling fact, then you can't have a conversation that will produce anything but the loss of time.

If you want to talk about the effect of belief in a specific afterlife in the lives on believers, then, sure, that's something you can have a discussion over, totally. You cannot, however, have a discussion about whether or not people are pan-dimensional gerbils whose souls reside in some fucking gland that squirts out hormones and anchors us to this dimension. There's no way to form an argument when EVERYTHING is completely abstract.

>>12398

According to what i've been told by Catholics you have to be Saved in order to get to Heaven, just going to confession is not enough.

>>12401
Why does there need to be an argument? That's what you're missing, I'm not trying to debate this. I am simply saying I love to hear peoples opinions, I am not trying to argue one way or the other.

>but when you get to a point that what you're talking about is so abstract, so devoid of any ability to be grounded in anything resembling fact...

I'm pretty sure every religion is like this. Very little of it is based in fact. I think if there is something we do not understand; in this case I'm talking about the DMT, and pineal gland.. then we should talk about it. It's strange the possibilities are endless. There is this psychedelic hormone inside our bodies and inside most living orgasms.. and we have no clue why it is there. The only time we notice it being activated is in near death/ actual death. So obviously it is linked to dying, but why? It is VERY interesting and it is something I don't think should be ignored. It is not that abstract, it's inside your head right now, laying dormant until you get hit by a bus or are smothered to death under a big fat ass. It is something based in reality and in my opinion there is more reality to it then there is to any other religion/religious experience. Dmt is thought to be the cause of religious experiences, so why in the WORLD would you just ignore it?

Yes some of the things I would like to discuss are slightly abstract but really anything unknown is abstract in the beginning. I mean think about how people 100 years ago would have viewed something like atoms, or the infinity of space? Both are abstract, but both are very real. Saying something is too abstract is sort of asinine to me. Just because you can not understand it, and can not see it does not mean it is any less real. Most likely reality as we perceive it is not the true nature of reality, there is so much we do not understand, and I don't think we have the capability,(as of yet) to completely understand how everything works.

Also, I fucking love coast to coast.

Oh and I think I added you on xbox live. Not sure. It said killerJew and the call sign was loki. Idk.

>>12403
Meh, idk. I absolutely hated catholic school, and hated going to church. So I never paid much attention. :\

>>12404
Not the kind of argument I meant.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/argument
>a process of reasoning; series of reasons

The Wiktionary one is even easier:
>A series of statements organized so that the final statement is a conclusion which is intended to follow logically from the preceding statements, which function as premises.

As in, if you want to talk about something in which nothing can be grounded in reality, you cannot create a thesis, you cannot create evidence for that thesis and you cannot create warranting statements for that evidence. An intelligent conversation cannot be had.


Also, I would question as to whether or not the purpose of religion is what happens to you after you die or even the mythology that supports that religion. If the commandments of a religion don't work without the "magical" aspects of the religion, then it's probably not a religion worth following. If you're saying that religion is solely about the lore, then I think your premise is mistaken from the start.

sage

>>12407
>Not the kind of argument I meant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

>>12407
If you do not want to talk about it or feel it is pointless then why are you still posting? Isn't that a bigger waste of time? I like this stuff. I like to think outside of the box, and about things that don't fit into this reality. (even though dmt and everything I have brought up aside from theories is very real)Call it what you will, but I think it is interesting and basically loki I don't care what you think of it. The reason I made this thread is for things like >>12340, i want more of this. Sadly no one is talking about this. All I'm getting is people talking about secular religion and how pointless it is to think outside the box of reality. Reality is most likely not as we perceive it, we only have 6 senses. Our minds are not at full compacity, there are so many things the human mind can not conceive but that does not make those things less real. You are thinking inside the box of your perceived reality. I'm asking you to step out. If you can not, so be it. But in that case you really have no business posting anymore. I'll take this to /x/ i suppose. They always give interesting ideas. That is all I am asking for, is ideas. You've missed that. There is no need for evidence, or a thesis.

>>12410
>Our minds are not at full compacity
Speak for yourself.
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/10percent.asp

>>12411
http://scienceray.com/biology/human-biology/how-much-brain-do-we-use/

>>12410
I could say something about how often I've come across chicks who seem pretty neat until they open their mouths and start letting their half-baked "opinions" flop out.

It would sound misogynistic, though, and I wouldn't mean it that way.

>>12413
I'm just interested in something that you are not interested in. Get over it. Everything in science was once a half baked idea.

Seriously loki if you don't like it, then stop talking. There is nothing half baked about discussing the DMT and it's uses. Both as a spiritual drug in the amazon and it's effects as one dies. New things are discovered every day, and I'm sure when someone brought up the IDEA of protons and neutrons there were nay sayers like yourself who laughed in there face. People STILL laugh at quantum physicists when they come up with new, inventive and imaginative theories. That is why I LOVE reading about quantum physics! It's so out there and different I can not help but be interested. Just because you have no imagination doesn't mean others have to subscribe to your dull sense of reality. I for one, do not believe at all that reality is as black and white as what we experience daily. Am I some new aged hippie? No absolutely not. I've never burned sage in my apartment to ward off the evil spirits. I just simply enjoy imaginative theories, even if they have no bases in tangible reality as we know it today.

>>12413
You act as if there can't possibly be anything new and completely out there to be discovered. That is a very closed minded mentality.

One of the big arguments that a lot of atheists give against the existence of God is asking the question of why God does not stop evil or stop tragedies from happening. If He is a loving God then why allow misery, evil, and Satan in the first place?

That used to be the question i would ask my preacher and the answer was always, "It's God's Will. We can't understand how God sees things." That answer was always unsatisfactory with me. I was in college before i found my answer. I was reading John Milton's Paradise Lost and it was a epic poem to be sure. But the part that answered my question was in the scene where we see Lucifer (Satan) winging his way to the Garden of Eden to tempt Adam and Eve to sin. God and His angels watch Satan and one of the angels asks God to stop Satan, because the angel and God of course know that Satan is going to try to tempt Man to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree.

When God refuses to stop Satan the angels ask why. God's explanation is simple. He gave Man Free Will when he created him. And as part of giving Man Free Will, God made a promise not to interfere in Man's ability to make his own decisions. Even if the decisions are bad ones. When Man sinned for the first time, God had already warned Adam and Eve about the consequences of not obeying the one commandment that they had been given so their actions had consequences.

The second greatest consequence of their actions was that God no longer kept perfect control over the Universe and thus He simply set the basic rules (the laws of physics as we know it)and let things play out.

So simply put, evil exists because Man is now imperfect and in accordance with Free Will, if a human wishes to do evil, he has the right to do so. God doesn't interfere because Free Will is the right of all sentient beings in the Universe, even the screwed up ones. But there is a caveat, and that caveat is prayer.

When a person prays to God for help, then this is what this person is asking for, and it's a pretty tall order:

1. The person is asking God to manipulate the will of the Universe for the person's benefit or the benefit of another.

2. The person is asking God to push aside or subtly manipulate another person's free will for their sake or the sake of another.

3. The person is asking God to push aside their own Free Will because said person needs help.

This is why prayer is necessary. Because God will not simply break the Free Will clause on a whim. Now God does intervene when He sees fit. Why? I have no idea, but you'll notice that most of this intervention is during life and death situations.

I hope this clears some things up. Feel free to ask some more questions and I'll answer when i can.

>>12415
I'm all for speculation, but it's not speculation if you're just making shit up with no regard for anything grounded in reality.

It would likely be a safe bet that I talk about just as much "speculative" shit as you, I just refuse to devote grand amounts of brainpower to things that cannot be discussed in a structured way.

>>12417
Then go away. bye.

Also nothing I've said has been has been complete speculation.. really the only thing I've brought up is the DMT thing. Which, it's there, we see it, it's not speculation. The other thing I offhandedly mentioned is I that read something interesting on /x/. I never said that I believe it, or that it is based on any fact. Just that it was interesting. So I suppose you can leave and go back to crunching numbers or whatever it is you do. I'm a right brained person, and sadly you are left brained; I'm an atheist, and you're a Jew. We will not agree or see eye to eye on this. I'm very sorry you are so closed minded, and years from now, when some new and amazing discover is made about reality think back on how you laughed. People laughed at Ferdinand Magellan too, and look how wrong they were. I hope you'll be happy residing in the group of closed minded men who think they know everything there is to know about everything.

>>12416
I'm really sorry man and this is probably going to sound harsh, but bad things happen because life is random and there is no god in the way you are portraying it. And really, as an atheist, I've never once thought that. I've never once said "If there is a god why doesn't he stop bad things" because to me, there is no god. He can not stop those bad things because he does not exist. This is of coarse only my opinion, but what you said gives no more or no less to your argument. As one could say god does not stop evil because there is no god. Well no god in the sense that your speaking. To me the whole "God gave man free will" thing is an absolute cop-out for the fact that god will never come, he will never help you because he is not there.

Now hows this, say I try to invoke the wrath of Satan and willingly allow him to consume me body and soul. (wouldn't be the first time. lol)Satan is supposedly always looking to tempt and steal man away from god. Would he take me?

>>12414
>People STILL laugh at quantum physicists when they come up with new, inventive and imaginative theories. That is why I LOVE reading about quantum physics!
You don't know what quantum anything is and I can tell by how you wrote this.

>>12420
That's me, by the way. So you can put a face to that irate guy who's sageing everything.

>>12421
Cool.

>>12421

did this thread seriously devolve into "i don't want to talk about this!" "but i do!" "but i don't!"?

>>12426
it was doomed before it even started.

>>12427
It's really fucking sad too.
>>12426
Yea.. it did. I don't understand why either, if you don't want to discuss it, then just.. don't. No one is making you.

>gets angry no one's talking about religion
>gets angry anyone starts talking about the religion she doesn't approve of
>gets angry no one's doing her brand of "thinking outside the box"
>gets angry when someone brings up interesting points for talking

>YOU'RE WRONG BUT OF COURSE IT'S ONLY MY OPINION BUT YOU'RE WRONG


>>12426
>did this thread seriously devolve into "i don't want to talk about this!" "but i do!" "but i don't!"?

>>12429
>Yea.. it did. I don't understand why either, if you don't want to discuss it, then just.. don't. No one is making you.
>I don't understand why either
>I don't understand why either
>I don't understand why either

My head, it spins.

>>12426
>>12429
My point was that there is a way to talk about this that is both productive and logical. This is not that way.

oh god stop

>>12434
Please tell me the more logical way to talk about a gland inside of your head that has the ability to give one a religious experience? I really just am not following how something that is very real and very much in your own thick skull right now is illogical? So tell us all knowing loki, how can this conversation be logical? Tell me what I should and should not talk about. :\

>>12430
I'd say I'm more disappointed then mad. I expected more then a bunch of closed minded people who can't imagine anything new, and trolls. Well I expected the trolls. You guys are kind of like w/e, it's how I know I'm on a chan site.

Jess, I liked that video you posted. If you know of anything else like that I'd appreciate a link.

>>12439
if you want general atheist videos as well, i like pat condell:
http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell

god told me to be an atheist
like jesus